It’s no secret that women and minorities have historically been underrepresented in science and engineering and have faced a lot of bias upon entering those fields. But what is Oregon State University doing to change that? To find out, we talk to Joe McGuire, one of the College of Engineering’s associate deans, and Anne Gillies, the search advocate program director at Oregon State about how they are building an inclusive environment.
To learn about the efforts to recruit and retain more students of underrepresented groups we talk to Ellen Momsen, director of the Women and Minorities in Engineering program and Kameron Kadooka, the coordinator of the Louis Stokes Alliance for Minority Participation program. We also hear from alumni, Patricia Walsh, Janice Levenhagen-Seeley and Justin Conner about their experiences at Oregon State. Janice describes ChickTech, the non-profit she founded to recruit and retain more girls and women in technology fields.
[AUDIO CLIP: from Hidden Figures]
Katherine Johnson: Mr. Johnson, if I were you, I'd quit talking right now.
Colonel Jim Johnson: I don't mean no disrespect.
Katherine Johnson: I will have you know, I was the first negro female student at West Virginia University graduate school. On any given day, I analyze the binomial levels air displacement, friction and velocity. And compute over ten thousand calculations by hand. So yes, they let women do some things at NASA, Mr. Johnson. And it's not because we wear skirts. It's because we wear glasses.
RACHEL ROBERTSON: That’s from the movie Hidden Figures. The story of three African-American women who were instrumental in NASA’s 1962 mission to circle the Earth.
I’m Rachel Robertson, and this the last episode in our season on Engineering for Inclusivity. And today we are focusing on change.
NARRATOR: From the College of Engineering at Oregon State University, this is Engineering out Loud.
ROBERTSON: It’s no secret that women and minorities have historically been underrepresented in science and engineering and have faced a lot of bias upon entering those fields. So, have things changed since the 1960s? Quite definitely. But the fields of science and engineering are still far from diverse. For example, black women hold just two percent of the science and engineering jobs, compared to 49 percent for white men according to a recent National Science Foundation survey.
In this podcast season, we’ve looked at a great cross-section of the research and design being done here at Oregon State to engineer for inclusivity. But we are going to switch gears a bit now and talk about efforts at Oregon State to be more inclusive.
JOE MCGUIRE: And this kind of work. It’s what I have to do. You know, it’s honestly, honestly, I have to do this work.
ROBERTSON: That was Joe McGuire, associate dean in the College of Engineering. You’ll hear more from him in a bit.
Before we get to that, I wanted you to hear from two of our alumni who can talk about their personal experiences of being underrepresented in engineering.
First, is Patricia Walsh who has an amazing story. She was born blind in her right eye and with low vision in her left. She lost the rest of her vision after surgery for a brain tumor when she was five-years old, so now she has just light perception in her left eye. Rather than be defeated by this she went on to college and chose to major in physics at Oregon State. And at the time there was a professor of physics here, John Gardner, who was also blind and became her mentor. But part way through her degree she switched to computer science and found some more mentors. I spoke with her recently when she was back in Oregon to be inducted into the college’s Council of Outstanding Early Career Engineers. It was a chance for her to reflect on how far she’s come.
WALSH: You know in career you always have these disappointments where you aren't where you want to be, but remembering that I enrolled in university just on a wing and a prayer and today I feel like I have a solid career and something I'm proud of. There is no way I would have gotten here without the help of my faculty from Oregon State – particularly Tim Budd and there were several other people who really went ... Dr. Burnett, several people who went above and beyond staying after hours to help me set up computers, finding resources for me, it really took a village. Dr. Burnett invited me homes for holidays, so I had a lot of support here and there is no way I would have made it through this program had I not had support from faculty and their belief that I could make it through.
ROBERSTON: Patricia was very inspiring to meet. She went on to a career in computer science at Microsoft, and then a start-up and now she is with Dover Fueling Solutions. But on top of that she became a world-class Paralympic triathlete holding the world-record for the blind and low-vision ironman and has earned several medals in the sport. She also wrote a book called Blind Ambition: How to Envision Your Limitless Potential and Achieve the Success You Want, and has toured the country giving inspirational talks. We are very proud of her.
We are equally proud of alumna Janice Levenhagen-Seeley who did not have the same welcoming experiences as Patricia did. Here’s her story
JANICE LEVENHAGEN-SEELEY: Back when I started my computer engineering degree in 2001 there were about eight percent women in electrical and computer engineering and it was very lonely and alienating. I felt like I wasn't good enough. I felt like I was an imposter. I really lacked a sense of belonging and I lacked confidence in my abilities because who I was, was very different from everyone that I saw around me. So, after I graduated I ended up dealing with some pregnancy discrimination, when I pregnant with my second child, and I decided that the technology industry just wasn't worth it. I felt it was hopeless. I didn't see any way to change the industry because I was just this 20-something-year-old woman and I so felt that the best way for me to move on with my life was to go back and get an MBA and rebrand myself out of technology.
ROBERTSON: But Janice didn’t lose her love of technology and eventually she found a way to help change the industry. Five years ago she founded the nonprofit, ChickTech, of which she is the CEO.
LEVENHAGEN-SEELEY: The mission of ChickTech is basically to get and keep girls and women in high-tech. Our programs span both K-12 programs and also for women who are already in technology. So, on the K-12 side we mostly focus mainly on our high school program which is focused on girls who don't think of themselves as being technical but who have the aptitude to do well in technology. And then on the side for women we focus on a conference that we are running in seven different cities this year, ACTW (which stands for Advancing the Careers of Technical Women), along with meetups. And our programs are really awesome because it’s very synergistic. So, it's what I call a give and get model. So, the women and people who are in our community as adults are volunteering and helping bring in the next generation and mentor these high-school girls who then grow up to also be part of that ChickTech community.
ROBERTSON: ChickTech’s signature event is the kick-off for the year-long high school program. They bring in 100 girls in the area to do hands-on workshops where students create something to take home like a soft circuit project or an app they have developed. I’ve had the opportunity to attend one, and I can tell you the girls have a lot of fun.
LEVENHAGEN-SEELEY: It's amazing to see the girls come in at the beginning and be really shy and not know how to interact with each other, and then leave at the end being so proud of what they created and having all these new best friends from all these different schools that were also at the event. And being able to break that stereotype by showing them how diverse the girls are that can succeed in technology I think is one of the greatest gifts we can give them.
ROBERTSON: ChickTech has expanded over the years and currently has 14 chapters in cities including Corvallis, Portland, Seattle, Boston, Houston, and Atlanta. Right now they are pushing to have 24 chapters by June, a promise Janice made to their largest funder, the Adobe Foundation. She has bigger aspirations to expand internationally.
LEVENHAGEN-SEELEY: Sixty-four percent of the girls who go into ChickTech as a high school student have never created a technology project before they come to ChickTech high school and that's really exciting. It's sad and also really exciting. So that means a ton of girls -- hundreds and hundreds of girls who go into our program were completely missed by every single other organization and every single other program that is out there until high school which is unfortunate, but it also means that we are able to reach them and they still have the opportunity to go into technology even when they are in high school.
ROBERTSON: For Janice’s important contribution in promoting inclusivity in engineering she (like Patricia) was inducted into the college’s Council of Outstanding Early Career Engineers in 2016.
So, we have great alumni like Janice who are working to change the culture of engineering to be more inclusive, but what is Oregon State doing? Jens Odegaard is here to talk to us about that.
ODEGAARD: Yeah, we are going to talk about how the College is working to “become a recognized model as an inclusive and collaborative community” which one of the college’s strategic goals. We’ll hear from Joe McGuire, one of the College of Engineering’s associate deans, and Anne Gillies, the search advocate program director at Oregon State.
ROBERTSON: And I’ll be back later to talk about how the College of Engineering is working to recruit and retain students of underrepresented groups in engineering. So, I’ll see you later!
ODEGAARD Okay, see ya Rachel!
So, as the Associate Dean for Faculty Advancement, Joe is tasked with reaching this strategic goal. To set the table, I asked Joe about the relationship between diversity and inclusion and how they’re defined in the context of the College of Engineering.
McGUIRE: OK. And I'll start by saying that I know that folks have different meanings, especially around words like diversity, and that's cool, I mean I can engage conversation like that, but for us, because these words are used in the Strategic Plan, we have to have an idea of what they mean. So, for me, I consider diversity as really the self-selected attributes of a population, of individuals of a population, so race, gender, ability, age, birth country, and so forth, and I kind of treat it that way, as statistics. Also, diversity of lived experiences - that's what diversity is. But because you could have a diverse population, and yet not have an inclusive environment for them, or not practice equitable practices, I kind of put diversity in that category, and so then bring in inclusivity, which is another word you want a definition for, I think of as a place where folks are valued because of what they bring. Because of what they bring, because of who they are, and not in spite of who they are or what they bring. So, where they can enter in to the dialogue or the conversation, and they're valued because of what they say and they're being their true self when they're doing that, and not pretending to be somebody at work that they aren't really elsewhere.
ODEGAARD: This inclusion of folks who have the freedom to be themselves at work and not just in their personal lives, is incredibly important for the success of the College of Engineering, because if the community is insular rather than inclusive, it’s gonna drive away top-notch faculty and students.
MCGUIRE: We've hired great talent, and if we're not an inclusive environment, folks get disenfranchised right away. Being inclusive is just not letting people talk, or letting them express their opinion, it's about really respecting them and listening to that opinion and valuing what a person brings and valuing that person, knowing that they're bringing their true self to it. And, if we weren't like that, there's a whole lot we'd miss out on, because we'd miss out on the contributions from those folks, to see things from a different perspective, or from whatever perspective.
ODEGAARD: Missing out on these contributions would have some serious effects. Here’s Oregon State engineering alumnus Nadia Payet, who’s now a software engineer for Google, from this season’s first episode:
NADIA PAYET: A diverse workforce is a better work force. Diversity of backgrounds, diversity of, opinions, of solutions that we can come up with. When I design something it's all in English because this is Google, programming is all in English but then I designed a product and then I'm like, ‘In French, this word … I don't know how are going to translate this, but it's not going to fit on this tiny phone, so we have to find a different way.’ And oftentimes it has to be pretty creative to fit really long words. German is our canonical example of really long words. We are, like, ‘How would this look in German?’ And if you don't have people who think about these things, think about these problems ahead of time, then they will happen in the product. And it leads to some sub-optimal experience.
ODEGAARD: And here’s Patricia Walsh again. You heard her earlier in the show.
WALSH: As a person with blindness who uses technology, the technology I appreciate the most is designed with universal access in mind. And what you’ll find is that if something is built to be accessible, it’s actually a better user interface, a more thought through user interface and something that’s more adaptable to a variety of tools. While you’re reaching a population of individuals with disabilities, you’re also reaching a wider population of individuals who are aging, individuals who may be using alternative screens or alternative views of your technology. So you’re actually going to be able to hit a wider user base if you do design with universal access in mind.
[MUSIC: Bouncing Ball, used with permission of a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial License]
ODEGAARD: Interestingly enough, the research also backs this up. A 2015 report by McKinsey & Company—which isa global management consulting firm—titled Diversity Matters examined data sets for 366 public companies across a wide range of industries in North America, Latin America and the UK. They concluded that companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15% more likely to financially outperform companies in the bottom. That number increases to 45% for ethnically diverse companies.
In other words, diversity, but more importantly inclusion of the contributions from that diverse group, is critical to driving the innovation and transformational education that the College of Engineering prides itself on.
This is why building an inclusive community is one of the college’s strategic goals. Here’s Anne Gillies, who’s the Search Advocate Program Director at Oregon State.:
ANNE GILLIES: So often, our goals or expectations or our qualifications that are related to diversity and inclusion and justice, end up showing up at the end or end up showing up as a tacked-on looking thing, that makes it look like it's not essential to what we're working towards. And I think engineering has done a terrific thing by putting it front and center at the very beginning- there's no question that this is real.
McGUIRE: And it makes sense, because it's like, goals that have to do with building the house, making the environment right. And within that context now, now we can move forward with all the great things that we're doing in teaching research and these mission-specific activities.
[MUSIC: Bouncing Ball, used with permission of a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial License]
ODEGAARD: Joe’s an engineer through and through, and still dedicates half his time to teaching chemical engineering. He’s passionate about helping create the most inclusive engineering community he can, because he’s seen the other side. Fair warning, he gets a head of steam going over the next few minutes, but I think it’s important to hear in full because it really exposes the contrast between where we were and where we’re trying to go.
McGUIRE: Well, you know all my life I've been an engineer; I have been on this faculty more than half of my life.
[MUSIC: Bouncing Ball, used with permission of a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial License (plays underneath McGuire talking]
When I got here, I really didn't see anything out of the ordinary, I mean I never thought about it. When I was at Georgia Tech as an undergrad, 100% of the engineering faculty in my unit, the biggest Chemical Engineering program in the country, it was all male. And then I went to graduate school at North Carolina State - every year I was there, through master's degree, and then I went away and worked, and I came back and got a Ph. D - never a woman on the faculty, never saw a woman in front of the classroom teaching an engineering course, I never saw a research lab run by a woman. Never thought about it.
So then I came out to Oregon State, and came out here in 1987, and I started actually over in the College of Ag. Sciences. There were no women on that faculty, not for years and years, until '94, so the first seven years. That was normal—now that would not be normal, but we can still look around and see there is a lot of inequality. The thing is that's different I think, is in engineering, there was—and still, lots of folks have it, I had it for years and years, and I think other folks still have it—this feeling that the way things are, as out of balance as it is, it's just the outcome of an otherwise properly-functioning social structure; it's just that the folks who are more talented and work hard get the job. Everything's fine.
So this meritocracy kind of ideal. And I've even heard the word batted around the college from folks talking when asked to explain things- I mean, with pride. So, I think, why does it matter? And it's because this ideology of meritocracy is just that, it's an ideology, it's not what engineering is. Technology that is delivered by engineers is delivered to a real diverse population that is not reflected in our faculty profiles. So, yeah, it's important, inclusivity's important, equity's important, because we realize when folks come in with different abilities, different socially-constructed, self-identified attributes - there are different kinds of resources, different things that are needed in order to enable their success.
And it's, in essence, it's free. It's free, it's not like we have to make this multi-million dollar investment into enhancing equity and inclusion, so it's got everything to do with what we do, and it's the old way that's got nothing to do with it.
[MUSIC: Bouncing Ball, used with permission of a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial License (exclamatory note]
ODEGAARD: Anne, has also been around Oregon State for quite a while. She first started here in 1985, and she’s excited to see the momentum shifting.
GILLIES: it also was an institution that was very, very homogeneous- I mean, we are fairly homogeneous now, as compared to some institutions of higher education. We are considered a predominantly white institution, for example. But, nothing compared to the way it was back then when we had, I think, two African-American faculty members in the tenured ranks, altogether, for many, many years. That has finally begun to change- not like it changes by itself, but because a lot of people have worked very hard to begin to create that change. We have a lot of programs that are in place now, and initiatives throughout the institution that are making change happen.
[MUSIC: Bouncing Ball, used with permission of a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial License]
ODEGAARD: This leads us to some of the specific steps being taken to actually create this community within the college. The first major step is in faculty recruitment. Joe and Anne have been working together to incorporate the Search Advocate Program, which Anne runs, into the college’s recruitment practices.
GILLIES: Search Advocate Program came from President Ray
ODEGAARD: That’s OSU President Ed Ray.
GILLIES: back in 2006, and he, in response to some specific situations that were recounted to him by members of AFAPC, Association of Faculty for Advancement for People of Color, initiated this program that would train or prepare people to serve as advocates for equity, for diversity, and for validity, in the search and selection process. So, search advocates serve as process advisors in search and selection, beginning with the development of the position description and the criteria, working with the search committee, ideally all the way up through the recruitment, screening, interview, reference checking, selection process, and even having input into some of the welcoming and integrating of the new person into the organization.
MCGUIRE: Every search committee has a search advocate who's been trained through Anne's program. We interface with Anne's office to get a check on the demographics of that pool, to check our screening process, and see -- you know, are we, if we start out with a certain demographic in the whole population of 100 applicants or whatever we have, is our process itself doing anything to disproportionately eliminate women or other groups that are underrepresented in engineering. So, we're doing that, and that has been golden.
ODEGAARD: Another major area is related to professional development for faculty and staff working for the college. Joe and a whole crew of other folks are working on new-faculty boot camps as well as workshops for those already at Oregon State. The college has also put together what we’re calling a “change team.”
MCGUIRE: Got a group of 24 folks—half of ‘em are tenure-track, the other half are professional faculty and staff-- coming together to take ownership of our own learning around these issues, whether that takes the shape of delivering a seminar, or two, or task forces, learning communities, whatever.
ODEGAARD: These steps are designed to put the college on the path of creating an inclusive and collaborative community by 2020, which is when the current strategic plan ends. So I asked Joe, what kind of College of Engineering community he’d like to see at that point.
McGUIRE: I would like to see that we know how to run searches, and we do it naturally, and we understand that we're doing it not to try to increase the numbers of underrepresented groups on the faculty. Those numbers will increase because of changing the practices that we change so seeing that play out, and a more diverse faculty as a result of that. And more student success from a more diverse student population. I would like to see that in 2020, that everybody understands Goal 1, that you can't open a car door without hitting somebody that understands Goal 1.
And then with promotion and tenure, that folks believe in it, they believe they're hired to do great things. You come in, and you want to do great things- come here and do them, we've got your back! Very importantly half-ish of the population of employees in the College of Engineering aren't professor-ranked people. So, we'd like to have a much more connected community thereto be just a more cohesive, working group, where everybody is bringing something that is absolutely essential. A lot of folks in the non-professor ranks- advisors, office managers, operation managers that spend more time, with more students, especially troubled students and students wondering what to do, where to go than the professor-ranked. So, just more unity there and feeling like we're all part of a real happenin' place, a great place to work.
[MUSIC: Bouncing Ball, used with permission of a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial License]
ODEGAARD: As we work toward this reality in the College of Engineering it’s an educational process to help move the dial for the next generation of students we serve. Here’s Anne.
GILLIES: I had the privilege of serving as search advocate on a search committee for one of the engineering schools, for a school head, several years ago. And on the search committee was a stakeholder, an industry stakeholder, and I was really taken with how much our industry partners expect OSU to take leadership in becoming a diverse, inclusive, and just institution that prepares our students to go out and function in the workplace and society, using those skills. And the strong message that I heard, very powerfully, throughout that search process, from that stakeholder, was- you are not there yet. You have work to do, OSU, and each time you select a leader or a faculty member, it is your opportunity to move the dial in that direction.
ROBERTSON: Wow, that was a perfect lead in for what’s coming next.
ODEGAARD: Oh, you’re back!
ROBERTSON: Hey, I keep my promises.
ODEGAARD: So, why was that the perfect lead-in?
ROBERTSON: Well, Anne makes the very excellent point that what we do at the university level to create an inclusive community is ultimately going to benefit our students. Another way to achieve our goals of inclusivity is to recruit and retain more students in underrepresented groups. As it turns out, we have a program here at Oregon State to do just that.
ELLEN MOMSEN: The Women and Minorities Program in Engineering was started in 2005.
ROBERTSON: That’s Ellen Momsen, the director of the program.
MOMSEN: It was really an industry driven program. Initially 100 percent supported by industry. We at Oregon State were not graduating the students that they wanted to hire. They want to hire design teams that look like the population.
ODEGAARD: Ah, I get it. And just like Anne said, a lot of this is driven by what industry would like to see in our graduates, and so they are partnering with us to make that happen.
ROBERTSON: Exactly. And it’s working.
MOMSEN: For example in 2010 we were about 13.9 percent women. Today we are close to 20 percent, so we are at the national average. Of course we have a lot of work to do.
ODEGAARD: Well I think I’ll step aside here Rachel, and let you take back over.
ROBERTSON: Thanks, Jens! See you later.
ROBERTSON: So, although it is one program there are two branches. One that focuses on women in engineering and the other on minorities. The minority branch is largely funded by the Louis Stokes Alliance for Minority Participation. Since that is a mouthful, people usually refer to it as LSAMP. Kameron Kadooka is the coordinator for the LSAMP program. Here he is to tell us about that.
KAMERON KADOOKA: So for LSAMP we are really looking to build a community of students at OSU so that those students can then feel supported and continue and be successful and persist through the first, second, third and fourth years. So, programs that we do, we have a large bridge program.
ROBERTSON: And what he means by bridge program is a residential program where the students move on campus 10 days prior to the beginning of the school year to get an introduction to being on campus.
KADOOKA: It's 60 students as well as 15 mentors. They get to tour STEM facilities on campus they get to meet with professors but they also do fun things and build community. They do the challenge course at OSU they go to the coast they go white water rafting they build that community within themselves.
MOMSEN: For our women program ...it sounds really fun, it is really fun, we do a rafting trip with 80 of our first-year women students with our current upper division students in each one of our 14 different majors who serve as mentors for these students. You know, rafting is a lot of fun but the main goal of this is when you are on a trip like that it's an adventure, when you come back it really jumps starts getting to know each other, the friendships and so when people start classes and if there are only 3 or 4 or 5 women in their class they may have already met them on the rafting trip so they don't feel alone they don't feel isolated. We also then have a women engineering lounge and a minority and STEM lounge, these are both areas where we can have study tables, tutoring times. We also have a variety of student organizations. We have Society for Women Engineers, Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers, and the National Society of Black Engineers. All of these provide leadership opportunities and opportunities to meet people in careers all over the northwest.
KADOOKA: So LSAMP we also can provide we do provide study tables, as well as tutoring we also bring in industry. We also take students to industry so we have that industry connection piece as well and we can also support students if finding research and other opportunities on campus.
ROBERTSON: During our conversation Ellen and Kameron mentioned Justin Conner, an alumnus of Oregon State who participated in the LSMAP program and recently gave a keynote address at an LSAMP conference here in Corvallis. I called him up to get a student perspective. He signed up for LSAMP for the chance to go whitewater rafting which he had never done before (he is from Miami, Florida). But the program turned out to influence his career in a way he never would have predicted. He is now working on his Ph.D. in biology at the University of North Texas. So, not an engineer – LSAMP includes all the STEM fields. But he talked to me about what undergraduate research meant to him.
JUSTIN CONNER: Doing undergraduate research is important and helps with retention. It helps give you an identity outside of just … especially if you are talking about a minority student and you show up to those large classroom halls and you are pretty much the only individual that looks like you. For me it told me that I wanted to be a scientist but I think just as importantly it has told my… some of my friends that have done undergraduate research that being a scientist is not for them. Or it might tell you that you are in the wrong field.
ROBERTSON: Now back to my conversation with Ellen and Kameron.
MOMSEN: For both programs the strategies are really to develop a community of peers but also to increase faculty and student interaction. And that's why something like undergraduate research programs are so critical. It helps students not only to identify as an engineer or as a scientist but they also develop a relationship with a faculty member who can really help guide them and open up a lot of new ideas about where career opportunities might be.
ROBERTSON: You do some work in the high schools too, can you talk a little bit about that?
MOMSEN: Yeah, that's critical because if we don't get more applications from women and minority students we can't really change the composition of our student body. So we really have to go out into the community and change the messaging of what engineers are and what they do. And our strategy is to send current engineering students. So we started a program called the engineering ambassadors and they go to high schools all over the state of Oregon. They talk to classes: chemistry classes, physics classes, math classes. It is always at least 50 percent women who are talking about the really exciting research going on here at Oregon State. The type of research that is changing the world having big impacts and these students are actually involved in that research. So it really lets the high school student know that as an engineer they can start making an impact from the day they set foot on the Oregon State campus.
ROBERTSON: Ellen points out there is another good reason to be at the high schools. Informing the teachers. She has a unique perspective on this.
MOMSEN: I was a teacher for 17 years and I taught physic and really looking back did not encourage the girls in my class to pursue engineering. I didn't realize at that time that it was an issue until I came to Oregon State and so if we can let the community of science teachers and math teachers and career counselors know about this issue and how engineering has so many great opportunities for women, for rural students, for all students. If we can let people know more about the career of engineering it really will help us.
ROBERTSON: So, there we go my friends. Another season of Engineering Out Loud comes to a close. In this season we heard from a polyphony of voices. I hope you enjoyed learning more about the many ways the College of Engineering is promoting inclusivity at Oregon State.
This episode was produced by me Rachel Robertson and Jens Odegaard with additional audio editing by Miriah Reddington. Our intro music is The Ether Bunny by Eyes Closed Audio on Soundcloud. It is used with permission of a Creative Commons Attribution License. Other music includes Bouncing Ball, by Podington Bear, used with permission of a Creative Commons Attribution License and Final Project by Duncan Robertson used with permission of a “he’s my son” License. Thanks, Duncan!
DUNCAN ROBERTSON: No problem
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